Faith, Fear, and Fallout: The Tragic Tale of the Mountain Meadows Massacre
The historical trajectory of Mormonism, particularly following the life and death of its founder, Joseph Smith, unveils a narrative rife with conflict and tragedy. Central to this discussion is the Mountain Meadows Massacre, a calamitous event that epitomizes the violent fallout stemming from the tensions between Latter-Day Saints and various external populations. As we traverse through the 19th century, we will elucidate the myriad grievances that culminated in this catastrophic incident, set against the backdrop of the Utah War and the broader societal upheaval of the era. The complexities of faith, survival, and the darker aspects of communal identity are examined, revealing how fear and paranoia can distort a community's moral compass. Thus, we endeavor to grapple with the profound implications of this history, one that continues to resonate within the collective consciousness of American society.
Takeaways:
- The historical narrative of Mormonism reveals a profound struggle for religious identity and acceptance in early America.
- Joseph Smith's vision and foundational role in establishing the LDS Church illustrate the complexities of faith and leadership.
- The Mountain Meadows massacre represents a tragic intersection of fear, misunderstanding, and violence in American religious history.
- The Utah War exemplifies the challenges faced by the Mormon community in navigating their relationship with federal authority and societal norms.
- The aftermath of the massacre led to significant shifts in the Mormon Church's public perception and political strategy over the following decades.
- The legacy of the Mountain Meadows massacre continues to provoke reflection on themes of morality, fear, and the consequences of religious zealotry.
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Transcript
A conflict leads to bloodshed.
Speaker A:In the middle of the 19th century, where US citizens clashed over past grievances and the lands they lived in, the Civil War was brewing.
Speaker A:But the war for Utah, for religious freedom and for redemption was already being fought.
Speaker A: before any guns were fired in: Speaker A:So what happened?
Speaker A:What led this grassroots religion based on the findings of one man in the shape of golden tablets that told the tr.
Speaker A:Truth, the truth of North America.
Speaker A:The original inhabitants of the west, which, you know, pioneers now race to settle the laminates who were originally with these people, these original Americans, and then somehow brought the end of it, would become what we know as Native Americans, which is, you know, how does this all fit into the context of this massacre?
Speaker A:Well, we'll be going over all of that from Joseph Smith to The execution of 120 people in Utah and a little bit more on another episode of the Remedial Scholar.
Speaker A:That's ancient history.
Speaker A:I feel I was denied critical need to know information belongs to Museum Foreign.
Speaker A:Welcome everyone to the Remedial Scholar.
Speaker A:I am your host, Levi I.
Speaker A:I hope everybody is as ready for spring as I am.
Speaker A:This cold weather needs to be stopped.
Speaker A:If you're new here, thank you for joining me today.
Speaker A:This is, it's going to be quite the episode.
Speaker A:We are covering a broad range of things, but ultimately it covers about a 25 to 30 year period, so it flows pretty nicely.
Speaker A:Before we get too far along, if you are a returning listener and have thus far enjoyed the show, please do me a kindness a quick favor and review the show wherever you are able.
Speaker A:Spotify has the star system.
Speaker A:Apple Podcasts also has a star system.
Speaker A:But you can also write something nice, give me some warm fuzzies.
Speaker A:But also it helps the show be discovered by people who may enjoy it.
Speaker A:Like your.
Speaker A:Okay, that is, that's all for my begging until the end of the show.
Speaker A:We got, we got a lot of ground to cover.
Speaker A:This is an episode that, you know, it's, it's got a little bit of everything.
Speaker A:I think it goes well with the last episode.
Speaker A:Also the Seminole wars because, you know, kind of exists in the same time period of the United States.
Speaker A:It also covers westward expansion, lawlessness in the Wild West.
Speaker A:I mean, it wasn't quite the Wild west just yet, but you know, there's also still that underlying theme of rebellion from the last episode.
Speaker A:This duality of pionee ways, the Oregon Trail, the Native Americans and how they all interacted with people driving west this episode was also recommended by a listener.
Speaker A:It.
Speaker A:It was requested, I guess.
Speaker A:I don't know, but thank you, Jordan.
Speaker A:I do also want to say that there's a Netflix series titled American Primeval about the events I'm going to be covering.
Speaker A:I have not seen it as of this recording.
Speaker A:I just wanted to point it out so, you know, you can check it out after you listen or maybe you've seen it.
Speaker A:You might want to learn more.
Speaker A:Find something I missed, find something they missed.
Speaker A:In either event, you know, let me know.
Speaker A:Comment on the social media posts on YouTube, do the stuff, create some engagement.
Speaker A:That would be great.
Speaker A:Even though I said I was done begging, I also wanted to share that I have not seen the show because I wanted to come at this with, you know, no previous media bias on this topic.
Speaker A:Specifically, I have learned about the Mormons or, you know, AKA the Church of Latter Day Saints lds, but very minimally I have listened to a few podcast episodes which discuss the religion itself or some of the fringe things on the outskirts of it.
Speaker A:I also watched a great miniseries called under the Banner of Heaven, which dealt with a fringe extremist branch of the lds, the Latter Day Saints.
Speaker A:It's not quite flds, but I don't know, they had some interesting things going on.
Speaker A:They had some a little bit of polygamy, a little bit of blood atonement, not widespreadly practiced by regular LDS folks.
Speaker A:I just want to also clarify that, you know, they don't condone these kinds of things, but there's a little bit of historical basis for those that do.
Speaker A:And I'm going to touch on that a little bit as well.
Speaker A:All of that to say this episode is going to be a little bit LDS history and then it's going to blend into the the main topic, the massacre at the Mountain Meadows, you know, all weaves together because it is not just the story about the massacre or the story of Mormonism.
Speaker A:It is this amalgamation of a lot of different things.
Speaker A:So I'm excited about it.
Speaker A:I also learned a lot during this, which is good.
Speaker A:I mean, I learn a lot every time.
Speaker A:But specifically, you know, without this show, would probably never really dig into the way I did.
Speaker A:So anyway, the rundown today will be some exploration of the origins of the LDS Church, you know, Joseph Smith and Co.
Speaker A:And how it was founded.
Speaker A:Then we're going to be dealing with the successors of Smith, since all of the events leading up to and including the massacre actually hinge on quite a bit of the origin story of Mormonism as well.
Speaker A:I'll Also give a little pause between that and the massacre itself because there's, you know, some timeline crossing involving, you know, the gold rush, the Oregon Trail and all that fun stuff.
Speaker A:Not directly, but it is all kind of in that, in that spirit, I guess.
Speaker A:So let's get into it.
Speaker A:This story begins like most do, with treasure.
Speaker A:And not just any treasure, but hidden treasure.
Speaker A:Treasure so hidden that you need special rocks, some divining rocks, the power of special rocks that lead you to this vast amount of treasure.
Speaker A:You know, these special rocks known as sear rocks, S E R s guide people to treasures by the power of the spirit world.
Speaker A:And this is, this is really the only way to begin this story.
Speaker A:And why, you might ask?
Speaker A:Well, that's because Joseph Smith, the founder of the Church of Latter Day Saints, is actually Indiana Jones.
Speaker A:No, of course not.
Speaker A:Although there is a hefty amount of treasure, gold and the like involved in this story.
Speaker A:And not just the golden tablets either.
Speaker A:So pretty exciting.
Speaker A:I told you, this story's got all of it.
Speaker A: young Joseph, who was born in: Speaker A:Vermont, you know, is also one of the most forgetful states that you know.
Speaker A:The only things I can ever think about Vermont are Ben and Jerry's being from there, the ice cream and Bernie Sanders.
Speaker A:So I don't know what that tells you, but anyway, Joseph born to Joseph Smith Senior and Lucy Mack, Joseph was one of 11 children because that's the way it worked back then.
Speaker A:He also became pretty ill when he was around 8 or 9 and his leg was so badly infected that they worried he would have to have it amputated, which also super common back then.
Speaker A:But luckily there was a newer kind of breakthrough surgery that enabled him to keep his leg and also be able to walk.
Speaker A:He would walk with a limp for the rest of his life, but better a limp than no leg, you know.
Speaker A:The Smiths were a family of farmers by necessity mostly.
Speaker A:Joseph's grandfather had lost quite a bit, quite a bit of land when he lived in Massachusetts in the later part of the 18th century.
Speaker A:And his father kind of also had bad luck in farming.
Speaker A:Following Joseph Junior's birth, there were some misfortunes in the crops that they were trying to profit from, which forced the Smith family to relocate once again.
Speaker A:They moved around a lot and this time they traveled to Palmyra, New York where Joey Senior received a mortgage for 100 acre farm.
Speaker A:And to supplement some of that income they would also hunt treasure, you know, like you do.
Speaker A:And that's where the treasure comes in.
Speaker A:Obviously Joseph Senior had some occult style beliefs in the way of treasure hunting.
Speaker A:He was kind of the influence of this like seer stone divining rod.
Speaker A:Like we're going to use some occultish kind of things to find some stuff.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So this kind of thing, not exactly odd behavior for the time and definitely not like for the area in which they lived.
Speaker A:Palmyra at this time was part of what is known as the burnt over district, which earned its name for the amount of religious movements that spread across the area like a fire.
Speaker A:Many denominations, various movements, all originated in this area.
Speaker A:Obviously we have Mormonism, but then also the Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists and so on.
Speaker A:It like from this area.
Speaker A:So that's the place where they live and the people they speak with and work near and where Joseph Smith grows up around.
Speaker A:The religious fervor no doubt had an impact on Joseph as his formative years were spent seeing various religious movements take shape, seeing how they began, the mistakes they made and so on.
Speaker A:And by the time he was 14, he had already had his first spiritual vision, if you can believe that.
Speaker A:And it is described as God the Father and Jesus Christ both appearing to him and told him not to join any existing churches.
Speaker A:Now this bit is a little interesting because maybe I misinterpreted it, but in my research it kind of seems like the LDs, they don't believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as being three different things.
Speaker A:They are all the part of the one thing.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So for him to have this vision and see two people, right, it's a little, little suspicious.
Speaker A:But anyway, he followed this advice, although still observed from afar, had no, no choice in the neighborhood he lived.
Speaker A:But he would continue to have some spiritual visions over the course of the next few years.
Speaker A:And his family largely supported and believed him, which is, you know, I guess, good.
Speaker A:His brother Alvin, one of the biggest supporters of the family and also biggest supporter of, of the family in general.
Speaker A:Like he worked the hardest to get the most money for the family so they could eat and survive.
Speaker A: In September of: Speaker A:And this one is a lot bigger.
Speaker A:It was, he was 17 years old, living in, you know, this, this interesting part of New York, trying to sleep off a long day of farm work and treasure hunting, you know, the routine, routine stuff.
Speaker A:And that night things took a, a turn, I don't know, straight out of the good book, I guess.
Speaker A:A heavenly being appeared in his bedroom like they often do and you know, it wasn't a winged angel with a harp.
Speaker A:This was Moroni, a resurrected prophet from an ancient civilization.
Speaker A:Pretty cool.
Speaker A:Also pretty tame in terms of religious mythos, right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So Moroni said, joseph, I am sent from the presence of God to deliver you a message unto you.
Speaker A:There's a book written upon plates of gold hidden in a nearby hill.
Speaker A:It contains the record of a fallen people and the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as delivered to them by the Savior himself.
Speaker A:Alongside the book, there are two stones and silver bows.
Speaker A:These, fastened to a breastplate, were used by.
Speaker A:By ancient seers.
Speaker A:With them, you will translate the record.
Speaker A:But be warned, you must not seek the plates for riches.
Speaker A:If your heart is not pure, you will not receive them.
Speaker A:And then, just like that, he vanished.
Speaker A:Or not quite.
Speaker A:According to the scripture, Moroni came back twice more that same night, and then once more the next evening.
Speaker A:He just really wanted to talk to Joseph.
Speaker A:So, yeah, he.
Speaker A:He would say, you know, this book is real, this mission is real, and you've been chosen, but also, you're not ready.
Speaker A:He said, you must come to the hill once a year on this same date, September 22nd.
Speaker A:Prepare yourself.
Speaker A:When the time is right, you will receive the record.
Speaker A:Pretty cool.
Speaker A:My dreams are not like that at all, but I wish they were.
Speaker A:It would take four more years and a lot more heavenly reminders before Joseph Smith would actually be able to claim the plates and begin translating what would become the Book of Mormon.
Speaker A: t, you know, on that night in: Speaker A:I mean, there was silver and gold included, but that's besides the point.
Speaker A:This was about something bigger.
Speaker A:And this is probably the most exciting thing that has ever happened to Joseph.
Speaker A:You know, 17 years old, already got this mythic quest.
Speaker A:Pretty rad.
Speaker A:The good news did not last very long, though, as Alvin, his older brother, the one who was supporting him and the whole family, he died from mercury poisoning after being treated by a doctor for a stomach issue, which is so very early 19th century.
Speaker A:Like, obviously that would happen.
Speaker A:It reminds me, I was just watching a thousand or a million Ways to die in the West, I can't remember, but he was talking about how, you know, if he gets sick, he's just gonna have to go to the doctor, and the doctor is gonna make him even more sick.
Speaker A:Anyway, back to the story.
Speaker A:On his death, Alvin instructed Joseph to do whatever it took to secure this scripture, these relics, right, that Moroni had spoken to him of to dedicate his Life to obtaining it.
Speaker A:Being the most pure.
Speaker A:All of these things to get this right.
Speaker A:His mission set.
Speaker A:Ready to rock, ready to change lives.
Speaker A:So yeah, Joseph, he listened to Moroni and return to the hill each year on the anniversary of the first vision, trying to purify himself enough to retrieve the tablets.
Speaker A:In the meantime, he worked odd jobs, including treasure hunting with a man named Josiah Stowell, or Stowell, and you know, obviously using his seer stones to help find treasure.
Speaker A:Locals did not appreciate this.
Speaker A:They got a little suspicious when Smith was finding nothing and they all kind of assumed he was exploiting Stow just to live on his farm.
Speaker A: In: Speaker A:Joseph Smith was actually charged as being, quote, a disorderly person and accused of fraud.
Speaker A:Because of this, LDS church has disputed this, the validity of this trial, though Smith was ultimately ordered to pay a small fine.
Speaker A:But it wasn't all bad.
Speaker A:Right around this time, Joseph Smith.
Speaker A:Joseph met Emma Hale, whose family happened to be hosting him during one of these treasure digs.
Speaker A:Her father not pumped that that this limping Indiana Jones was.
Speaker A:Was courting his daughter.
Speaker A:He's like, no, that guy's got a funny vibe about him.
Speaker A:And I don't like that he's using rocks to find stuff all the time.
Speaker A: Despite that, they eloped in: Speaker A:And later that year, Joseph claimed that he was finally able to retrieve the plates.
Speaker A:And maybe the pure of heart was actually getting married.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:I don't know if that unlocked it, but that seems like it could have been, you know.
Speaker A:And when he retrieved the plates, drama.
Speaker A:There was some thieves afoot, and he had to run through the forest carrying these golden plates, these large golden plates and a breastplate made of silver and encrusted with stones and stuff managed to escape.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker A:He did get, you know, he ran for his life and then hit.
Speaker A:Got like, ran into something, but he escaped.
Speaker A:And then when he got home, he scattered these pieces all across his house because he didn't want anybody to break in and, you know, only steal the first thing that they found.
Speaker A:Like, I get the point.
Speaker A:Like, you don't want them to be like, I found the treasure, but like, you don't think that if they find one cool thing, they're not going to keep looking through the rest of your home to find more cool stuff because that's, that's how thieves operate, man.
Speaker A:They're already breaking in.
Speaker A:It's not like they're going to stop when they've only searched a few things and only found one thing.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:They're going to turn that whole place inside out.
Speaker A:So he was nervous, naturally.
Speaker A:So, I mean, if I was carrying around golden plates all day, I'd get a little nervous too.
Speaker A:So he and Emma eventually fled to her family's home.
Speaker A:Yeah, and then that is when he started to translate these things.
Speaker A:They were not easy to translate, for starters, not even in English.
Speaker A:And Joseph had to rely on his seer stones placed in his hat and these golden spectacles to read them.
Speaker A:Very national treasure kind of thing.
Speaker A:Think of the little flicker shades that he has on the.
Speaker A:To read the Declaration of Independence.
Speaker A:Anyway, Joseph, only able to do so much at a time, would translate for somebody who scribed the translation.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:One man, Martin Harris, was apparently allowed to view the covered plates.
Speaker A:He was also given an early draft of the Book of Mormon and lost 116 pages of his work.
Speaker A:And this is obviously before the copy machine, so.
Speaker A:So that's rough.
Speaker A:His wife wanted to see proof about what they were doing and that he took the pages and they're gone.
Speaker A:And, you know, this also is a good moment to talk about.
Speaker A:The plates were never seen in public.
Speaker A:Nobody ever saw them.
Speaker A:Nobody ever saw anybody carrying them.
Speaker A:But Smith actually published witness testimonies, letters basically saying that certain people had seen them.
Speaker A:So he published these letters like himself, which I don't want to say it's suspicious, but it seems like it could be.
Speaker A:Somebody could take that out of context, I would suppose pose.
Speaker A: Anyway, In March of: Speaker A:Early doctrines of this church include authority restored by angelic visitations, baptism by immersion, and ongoing revelation.
Speaker A:This means, and this is a key part to LDS doctrine, ongoing revelation is the fact that certain people within the religion can decide what the things mean and interpret them.
Speaker A:Ongoing.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So whereas like the Catholics basically only have the Pope who can do that, you know, pretty, pretty frequently people can do that and have done that in the LDS Church.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So this is, this is what kind of separates them from a lot of other Christian religions.
Speaker A:So initial converts came from Smith's family inner circle.
Speaker A:And then also missionary efforts quickly expanded the the church's reach.
Speaker A:The movement g momentum, but also attracted some criticism.
Speaker A:Everybody's a hater.
Speaker A:Many saw Smith's visions and use of seer stones as fraudulent.
Speaker A:What?
Speaker A:Okay, prove it.
Speaker A: e church grew rapidly, and by: Speaker A:There, the Saints experienced early success, but also some growing pains.
Speaker A:Communal living efforts through the Law of consecration caused division and the failure of the church run Kirtland Safety Society bank kind of shook confidence in Joseph's leadership skills.
Speaker A:Tensions rose further with internal dissent and whispers of polygamy.
Speaker A:Oh my gosh.
Speaker A: red and feathered by a mob in: Speaker A:But still undeterred.
Speaker A: By: Speaker A:Missouri, where they had hoped to build Zion, quickly ran into new problems.
Speaker A:Or old problems, I guess.
Speaker A:Old problems, new places.
Speaker A:Locals viewed the growing Mormon population as a threat, especially with block voting and religious claims over the land.
Speaker A:Clashes erupted, including the Gallatin election day riot and a series of militia skirmishes.
Speaker A:Rumors of a secret Mormon group, the Danites, fueled fears and Missouri's governor issued the infamous extermination order.
Speaker A:Just a few days later.
Speaker A:The Hans mill massacre left 17 Mormon men and boys dead.
Speaker A:Smith was arrested and jailed once again and the Saints were also forced to flee once again.
Speaker A: In: Speaker A:Joseph Smith served as a mayor, militia commander, prophet, introducing new doctrines.
Speaker A:This is this ongoing revelation thing that I was talking about, which one of the things that was a little interesting that people didn't like was baptism for the dead.
Speaker A:Meaning that they could just decide to baptize somebody in their faith and then oh well, good news, grandpapa, he's going to, he's going to heaven now.
Speaker A:And this is really particular because, and I, it does make sense.
Speaker A:If you're like going to start a new religion, how are you going to justify all of the dead people?
Speaker A:Like are they all have to just burn in hell now because you.
Speaker A:This religion came out after the fact.
Speaker A:So I do see it from that aspect.
Speaker A:But also a lot of cultural people who did not like this, they were like, you're just deciding to baptize my dead grandma?
Speaker A:Why?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Also a little more rumors of what is called plural marriage.
Speaker A:Little polygamy action which did kind of.
Speaker A:It was held under wraps for a while.
Speaker A:Also included in these things that they did not like.
Speaker A:And he had a 14 year old potential wife, although not super uncommon for this time unfortunately.
Speaker A:But apparently the locals didn't like it and maybe they were like justifying that in a way that they didn't like because they didn't like them in general.
Speaker A:But anyway, outside Nauvoo Fears grew that the Mormons were creating a theocracy.
Speaker A:Tensions boiled over when Smith, now running for president, ordered the destruction of a newspaper that had exposed his practices.
Speaker A:Super, super normal stuff that people do all the time, even today.
Speaker A:He was arrested and taken to Carthage Jail, where a mob would rush the jail and then kill his brother Hiram and himself.
Speaker A:Well, he didn't kill himself.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker A:He fought and then fell out or was shot out of a second floor window.
Speaker A:And then potentially even, even though he might have died right there, they stood him up and shot him a bunch more times just to make sure, which is pretty hardcore, apparently.
Speaker A:His final words were, oh, Lord, my God.
Speaker A:Which makes sense.
Speaker A:After Smith's death, Navu failed, right?
Speaker A:It fell apart.
Speaker A:There was no clear successor, and chaos followed until Brigham Young of the BYU Cougars stepped up.
Speaker A:After delivering a speech that many said made him look and sound like way too much like Joseph, the Saints accepted him as their leader.
Speaker A: And then in: Speaker A:Well, they.
Speaker A:They left a little bit before that, but they're like, we're going to get the heck out of here.
Speaker A: So in: Speaker A:Brigham Young had led the first group of Mormon pioneers into the Salt Lake Valley.
Speaker A:Isolated and desolate.
Speaker A:It was exactly what they wanted.
Speaker A:It was far away from these mobs, politicians, and the kinds of laws that always seemed to get them killed.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Also, it's not like land that everybody was fighting for.
Speaker A:They were like, oh, nobody's going to want to settle here.
Speaker A:We'll just make our like, make this our place, right?
Speaker A:And they got to work fast.
Speaker A:The desert was turned into farmland.
Speaker A:Through massive irrigation systems, Salt Lake City began to rise.
Speaker A:Dozens of Mormon settlements spread across what would become Utah, parts of Nevada, Arizona and Idaho.
Speaker A:The people called the region Deseret, a name from the Book of Mormon meaning honeybee, symbolizing industry and cooperation.
Speaker A:But Deseret wasn't just a spiritual community.
Speaker A:It was a functioning society with Brigham Young acting as both prophet and governor, and sometimes, if needed, as a general.
Speaker A: In: Speaker A:Congress created the Utah Territory, a compromise that kind of stopped short of recognizing the vast Mormon state of Deseret.
Speaker A:The Saints didn't get their independent kingdom, but they kind of did get territory status, which the main benefit.
Speaker A:Brigham Young was named as governor.
Speaker A:So that's kind of a win, right?
Speaker A:To the federal government, this kind of seemed like a small concession, but to these LDs, it was.
Speaker A:It was validation.
Speaker A:It was A confirmation of what they were doing was correct.
Speaker A:And their main prophet now had political authority to match his spiritual authority also.
Speaker A:Pretty big that that authority, though it did make people uncomfortable.
Speaker A:It had been less than a decade since the Latter Day Saints arrived in the Salt Lake Valley and already they had built something extraordinary.
Speaker A:Brigham Young, their prophet leader, led them out of exile into what he called Zion, a sacred refuge from the violence and betrayal that they had faced out east.
Speaker A:And then here, surrounded by the mountains and desert, they, you know, they finally had their own place.
Speaker A:Now the Utah Territory is kind of important in terms of considering the California gold rush, right?
Speaker A:1949, people start finding gold and people begin to trek across the United States, across Utah territory.
Speaker A:So these Mormons living in their kind of religious monarchy out west kind of made people uncomfortable.
Speaker A:The structure of the territory also troubled many non Mormons.
Speaker A:The Saints had created a system where the church and government were pretty much one in the same.
Speaker A:Mormon leaders held not just religious authority, civil authority, judicial military power.
Speaker A:And Brigham Young, you know, not just spiritual head of the church, he was running this essentially independent nation.
Speaker A:Mormon settlements kind of popped up all over the place.
Speaker A:And they carefully organized themselves and were obedient to this central leadership.
Speaker A:The Saints were focused, hard working and fiercely loyal.
Speaker A:But to outsiders, this tight knit unity and the total control exercised by Young were pretty alarming.
Speaker A:The situation became even more volatile when the federal government began sending appointees to serve in the territory.
Speaker A:Judges, what is called Indian agents and other federal officials arrived from the east expecting to enforce US Law.
Speaker A:Instead, they found themselves sidelined, ignored, or simply replaced by Mormon run courts and bureaucracies.
Speaker A:Several of these federal officers didn't last long.
Speaker A:Many left Utah and returned to Washington with reports of what they saw as widespread insubordination.
Speaker A:They complained that the Mormons refused to follow federal statutes, that Brigham Young was undermining their authority, and that the church was operating as a theocracy.
Speaker A:And most alarming to them were the persistent rumors, now growing harder to dismiss, that polygamy was not just practiced in secret, but actively taught and defended by Mormon leaders.
Speaker A:Though the church hadn't fully acknowledged the doctrine publicly, enough, whispers had reached the east to make the rumors feel like, you know, it was a confirmed truth.
Speaker A:These reports describe Brigham Young as dictator painted, and painted the Saints as rebels, defiant and unwilling to recognize the authority of the U.S.
Speaker A:government.
Speaker A:And I should, I want to pause for a minute because Brigham Young, when rumors of plural marriage, polygamy started, he was like, no, I don't want any part of that.
Speaker A:But as soon as he took power, wouldn't you know who.
Speaker A:Who was excited for more wives?
Speaker A:Bring them anyway.
Speaker A: esidents ever, was elected in: Speaker A:The country was already teetering on the edge of conflict over slavery.
Speaker A:And Buchanan, he was eager to assert some federal control somewhere, saw Utah as a manageable crisis.
Speaker A:He wasn't looking for a fight.
Speaker A:He was looking for order.
Speaker A:But rather than open a line of communication with Utah's leadership or send investigators, he kind of just acted a little decisively and some might say recklessly.
Speaker A: In: Speaker A:The decision, not told to anybody.
Speaker A:Nobody sent any letters.
Speaker A:No announcements were made.
Speaker A:Washington was sending an army to Utah, and nobody in Utah knew why.
Speaker A:Now, this is important because if you find out there's an army coming for you, what do you do?
Speaker A:So when news of the troop movement finally reached Salt Lake City, Brigham Young and the Saints, they were stunned, to say the least.
Speaker A:They had been.
Speaker A:There was no summons, no demands, no accusations, just, oh, they're sending soldiers.
Speaker A:Cool.
Speaker A:Oh.
Speaker A:To Americans in the east, this may have looked like a reasonable move to reassert federal authority in a troubled territory.
Speaker A:But to the Mormons, it felt like history repeating itself.
Speaker A:In Missouri, they had been declared enemies of the state and forced out.
Speaker A:In Illinois, their prophet had been murdered.
Speaker A:In both cases, violence had been backed by the state militias or allowed by the government by governmental indifference.
Speaker A:And now, with a federal army marching towards them, it looked like the same thing happening all over again.
Speaker A:Bringing Brigham Young had no intention of letting that happen.
Speaker A:And maybe.
Speaker A:Maybe he knew the true reason of what was happening and then decided to otherwise twist things to potentially, you know, play on that fact.
Speaker A:He declared martial law throughout the Utah territory, barred federal troops from entering without permission, reactivated the Navu Legion, which was the Mormon militia, and ordered them to prepare for defense.
Speaker A:But Young not planning a conventional war, not yet.
Speaker A:Instead, he ordered a campaign of strategic resistance.
Speaker A:Mormon militia had been disrupting, began disrupting supply lines, burning army wagons, driving off livestock, destroying forts to prevent the army from establishing winter quarters.
Speaker A:You know, it was slow, deliberate, and, you know, is meant to stall anybody.
Speaker A:They didn't actively engage in combat with anybody, but they prevented things from escalating.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:The Saints fortified these mountain passes, evacuated vulnerable settlements, preparing themselves for what they feared might yet be another bloody Confrontation with an American military they no longer trusted.
Speaker A:From the government's perspectives, they were sending troops to enforce the law and install a new governor.
Speaker A:But from the Mormon point of view, they were facing this old enemy.
Speaker A:Under our new flag.
Speaker A:The east saw a rebellion that needed to be quelled.
Speaker A:The Saints saw an invasion.
Speaker A:The memory of past persecutions, deep seated mistrust of federal authority and the fear of being driven out once again all came rushing to the surface.
Speaker A:Every wagon burned, every militia march, every whispered rumor about pl.
Speaker A:Marriage or secret armies only made the tensions worse.
Speaker A:What was supposed to be a show of federal resolve was quickly spiraling into something much more dangerous.
Speaker A:The Mormon settlers had already been cast out of the country once before.
Speaker A:In their eyes, they weren't just defending Utah, they were now defending his eye on this, this holy land.
Speaker A:And they were preparing to do whatever it took to hold on to it.
Speaker A:And into this climate of paranoia and impending war came an unsuspecting wagon train.
Speaker A:The Baker Fancher party, a group of around 120 immigrants, not immigrants, immigrants from Arkansas or Arkansas, was on its way to California.
Speaker A:Right this gold rush, Oregon Trail time period, they're excited, they're we're going to find a new life.
Speaker A:We're going to go travel to this new land and make something of ourselves.
Speaker A:They were well stocked, well organized, largely made up of families, like whole families.
Speaker A: Utah, which was the summer of: Speaker A:And there they, they walked right into a pressure cooker.
Speaker A:They tensions were at a boiling point.
Speaker A:The Saints had heard of this advancing U.S.
Speaker A:army.
Speaker A:You know, they were already deploying guerrilla tactics, burning things, doing all this stuff.
Speaker A:And now all these rumors spreading around that spies had been sent ahead, that invaders were already among them, that any outsider could be working to destroy Zion from within.
Speaker A:To the settlers of Utah, particularly those around Cedar City, the arrival of a large, well equipped wagon train looked less like westward migration and more like a possible reconnaissance mission.
Speaker A:That immigrants, for their part, also didn't help their own cause, though not really maliciously.
Speaker A:Some were said to have made some boastful comments about helping kill Joseph Smith or pledge support to incoming armies.
Speaker A:Whether these stories were true, embellished or completely invented later to justify what happened, they were seized upon by local Mormon leaders who were already on edge.
Speaker A:Among the more inflammatory anecdotes, one immigrant reportedly bragged that he had the quote, the very gun that shot old Joe Smith and was ready to use it again.
Speaker A:Another claim that first of all, how would he have that anyway.
Speaker A:How would he know which one it was?
Speaker A:Another claim that once they reached California, they were going to return with an army and finish what they.
Speaker A:That what had been started in Missouri.
Speaker A:There were even rumors that the local Arkin Arkansans had poisoned a spring.
Speaker A:Though this.
Speaker A:There's no real evidence to support it.
Speaker A:Some livestock fell ill following their departure from a nearby settlement.
Speaker A:People kind of was like, oh, they poisoned the water hole.
Speaker A:But I don't know if you know this, but cows kind of just die sometimes.
Speaker A:Especially back then, they didn't have the best care for literally anybody.
Speaker A:These stories, whether, you know, grounded in fact or twisted by fear, painted the immigran as hostile provocateurs rather than innocent travelers, though definitely does not excuse what had happened to them.
Speaker A:It also kind of seems like they're kind of just talking smack, you know, like, they know Mormons.
Speaker A:They've heard stories, and they're like, these guys are funny.
Speaker A:So it's.
Speaker A:It kind of feels like just some Southern people being like, yeah, okay, buddy.
Speaker A:Yeah, I got the gun that killed Joe Smith.
Speaker A:You know, like that kind of.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:When I read it, I was like, yeah, this kind of just seems like they're just trying to.
Speaker A:Trying to troll these people.
Speaker A:Not really wanting to fight, but just kind of, I don't know, being antagonistic.
Speaker A:Under orders from Brigham Young, Utah was still under martial law.
Speaker A:Travel permits were required, and aid to immigrant parties was discouraged.
Speaker A:Communities were told to conserve.
Speaker A:Conserve supplies and prepare for a siege.
Speaker A:The immigrants, unaware of just how tense things had had become, tried to purchase grain and feed in Cedar City and nearby settlements.
Speaker A:And they were turned away for turned away or price gouged.
Speaker A:When they tried to continue their journey.
Speaker A:Local leaders met to discuss what to do.
Speaker A:At the center of the discussion, making the decision making, was a man named Isaac C.
Speaker A:Hate, a prominent church leader in Cedar City and a lieutenant colonel of the Navu Legions.
Speaker A:This guy is also very interesting, kind of a wild man.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker A:He feared that letting the immigrants pass through could jeopardize local safety or supply lines.
Speaker A:But he also knew that attacking them outright would be both illegal and morally indefensible.
Speaker A:So he came up with a plan.
Speaker A:A terrible, unholy compromise.
Speaker A:They would incite the local Paiute tribes to attack the wagon train.
Speaker A:The plan quickly unraveled.
Speaker A: ,: Speaker A:That morning, they were attacked.
Speaker A:But it wasn't just Paiutes members of the local militia disguised as native warriors, were among them.
Speaker A:The attackers were among the attackers.
Speaker A:The initial assault killed a handful of immigrants, but the party formed a tight defensive circle with their wagons, and they held their ground for five days, five very long days.
Speaker A:And it is this response that they kind of look to as well.
Speaker A:They see they were ready for a fight because they prepared like they.
Speaker A:They got ready after they attacked them.
Speaker A:During the siege, the Mormon attackers realized their plan was failing.
Speaker A:The immigrants were not dying as quickly as expected, and some attackers feared they would be recognized.
Speaker A:If any of the immigrants escaped and reached California, they might expose what had happened.
Speaker A:And the situation, grim as it was, spiraled even further out of control.
Speaker A:At this point, fateful decision was made.
Speaker A:John D.
Speaker A:Lee, a Mormon militia officer and Indian agent, approached the wagon train under a white flag.
Speaker A:He told the immigrants that they had been rescued, that local Mormon leaders had negotiated a truce with the Paiutes, and that the travelers would be escorted safely away from the meadows.
Speaker A:Desperate, dehydrated and low on ammunition, the immigrants, they agreed.
Speaker A:In small groups of survivors were marched out, men first, first, then women and then children.
Speaker A:And as they walked, each group was suddenly attacked by the militia.
Speaker A:Almost all of the men, women and older children were murdered at close range.
Speaker A:It was an execution, not a battle.
Speaker A:Men were led away individually or in some small groups, some clasping the hands of their wives and children, believing that they were walking towards safety.
Speaker A:Then the signal was given, a shout or raised hand, and then their escorts turned their guns and knives upon them.
Speaker A:One by one, in staggered locations across, they were gunned down, stabbed.
Speaker A:Women and children, some holding infants or leading toddlers by the hand, were killed more haphazardly.
Speaker A:Screams echoed through the meadow as the women pleaded for mercy, some reportedly praying or just calling out for their husbands.
Speaker A:Just moments before being struck down.
Speaker A:A few children tried to flee, running into the brush.
Speaker A:But they were hunted and killed.
Speaker A:The ground, once green with grass, became soaked with blood.
Speaker A:Roughly 120 people killed.
Speaker A:Only 17 children are too young to remember what had happened.
Speaker A:Were spared.
Speaker A:17.
Speaker A:The massacre was one of the most horrific acts ever committed on American soil by Americans.
Speaker A:It shocked even those within the church when they found out.
Speaker A:Leaders scrambled to contain this story or try to.
Speaker A:Blame was shifted to the Paiutes.
Speaker A:Reports were buried or altered survivors.
Speaker A:Those 17 children were placed with Mormon families.
Speaker A:Case not returned to the east until years later, after federal investigations forced the issue.
Speaker A:Brigham Young denied prior knowledge of the massacre and condemned it once the full truth became impossible to hide.
Speaker A:But the Questions have lingered for generations.
Speaker A:And while no document ties him directly to the decision, Young's fiery rhetoric, the martial law environment he had created, and his failure to take immediate disciplinary action against the perpetrators have kept the debate alive.
Speaker A:One man, John D.
Speaker A:Lee, ultimately took the fall.
Speaker A:He was tried, convicted, and executed by firing squad with the same gun that killed Joseph smith.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A: In: Speaker A:The legacy of Mountain Meadows, you know, it's.
Speaker A:It's complicated and tragic.
Speaker A:For decades, the LDS Church largely avoided the topic altogether, letting it remain a dark shadow in the margins of their history.
Speaker A:But over time, efforts have been made to confront the truth.
Speaker A:Scholars have studied the event in depth, and to their credit, the church has cooperated in a lot of ways and also helped restore the massacre site.
Speaker A:And official statements now recognize the atrocity as a tragedy fueled by fear, isolation, and misguided zealotry.
Speaker A:Yet even now, the massacre, you know, it forces hard questions about obedience, religious extremism.
Speaker A:What happens when fear replaces faith?
Speaker A:The Saints at Mountain Meadows believe they were defending Zion, but in doing so, they became the very thing that they feared most.
Speaker A:Persecutors, not, not the persecuted.
Speaker A:The soil of that meadow still holds the weight of that contradiction.
Speaker A:And also, it is imperative to note, note that at the beginning, and even now, the Mormon religion views itself as a very peaceful religion.
Speaker A:There's no, there's not a whole lot of combativeness in the beginning or now, but the more that they got attacked and ran out of places, the more Joseph Smith kind of walked back that.
Speaker A:But they're supposed to be a non violent group.
Speaker A:And so this moment is just, just a terrible mark on their legacy.
Speaker A:And the Mountain Meadows massacre was not just the product of a few rogue actors.
Speaker A:It was the result of a community primed for war, steeped in apocalyptic thinking, cut off from the nation they no longer trusted.
Speaker A:Also to keep in mind the belief system of Mormon doctrine at that point and even kind of today where the men are going to die and go to heaven and then become sort of gods in their own way.
Speaker A:That's why they're saints, right?
Speaker A:Latter Day Saints.
Speaker A:Like this is, I think this is part of this story, right?
Speaker A:The immigrants, not soldiers, they were not enemies.
Speaker A:They were families hoping to build a new life in California.
Speaker A:And they arrived at the wrong place and the wrong time, worst possible time, and they paid the ultimate price.
Speaker A:For it.
Speaker A:And word of the massacre slowly made its way east.
Speaker A:But the full extent of the horror didn't truly reach the national consensus until months years later.
Speaker A:Later, United States government, you know, it was.
Speaker A:It thought that they de.
Speaker A:Escalated the Utah war pretty, pretty well was shocked when they.
Speaker A:When reports of 120 immigrants murdered started to surface.
Speaker A:Mostly families been slaughtered under a false flag.
Speaker A:We just talked about that last episode too.
Speaker A:Well, that's how they got Osceola.
Speaker A:Oh yeah.
Speaker A:Come on.
Speaker A:Come sign this truce.
Speaker A:Bang.
Speaker A:You're dead.
Speaker A:What was initially believed to be a Native American attack was soon understood to be far more minister.
Speaker A:Involving Mormon militiamen acting under the veil of secrecy and fear, and also pitting this native people against these random families for no reason.
Speaker A:Which is also interesting because you have the Native Americans being the Lamanites in this history of the world according to the Book of Mormon.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So ended in a weird way, they become the scapegoats twice for this religion.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Anyway, so federal officials, already wary of theocratic rule in Utah, now had their worst fears confirmed.
Speaker A:That the Saints were not just religiously unorthodox, but possibly dangerous.
Speaker A:As the Civil War loomed even closer, little could be done to hold anyone accountable.
Speaker A:Years would pass before federal authorities could devote meaningful attention to investigating the massacre.
Speaker A:When they finally did, they found a community unwilling to talk and a wall of silence built as much from fear as from loyalty.
Speaker A: It wasn't until: Speaker A: al, and then his execution in: Speaker A:Though many believed, and still believed that he was scapegoated for decisions made at a much higher level, the broader fallout, though, you know, already underway.
Speaker A:The massacre and the war had left this stain on the Mormon image in America.
Speaker A:Newspapers decried the violence.
Speaker A:Editorial cartoons depicted Mormons as fanatics.
Speaker A:Congress used the massacre as evidence that Mormonism was incapable and incompatible to thrive in American society.
Speaker A:The federal government tightened its grip on Utah, delaying statehood, curtailing Mormon political control, launching aggressive campaigns against polygamy, enemy and perceived church overreach.
Speaker A:The Utah War, meanwhile, had ended without a true battle.
Speaker A:After tense, tense standoffs, Brigham Young stepped down as governor.
Speaker A:U.S.
Speaker A:troops entered Salt Lake City peacefully, and President Buchanan issued a blanket pardon to the people of Utah.
Speaker A:But though it ended quietly, the war marked a turning point.
Speaker A:It was the last time the church openly defied the United States with force.
Speaker A:It taught both sides a lesson about.
Speaker A:About limits, about power, about the need eventually to find ways to coexist.
Speaker A: gaining statehood for Utah in: Speaker A:But the ghost of the Mountain Meadows never left.
Speaker A:It lingered in sermons and whispered memories and in the uneasy distance between Mormons and their fellow Americans.
Speaker A: It wasn't until: Speaker A:Like they expressed regret, they didn't admit fault, they regretted it.
Speaker A:The massacre and the war didn't change, just change Utah.
Speaker A:They changed the nation's understanding of religious freedom, loyalty, and the line in between faith and fanaticism.
Speaker A:And they left behind a haunting truth.
Speaker A:Truth that even a people who saw themselves as persecuted could, in the wrong moment, become the agents of terror.
Speaker A:That even a people seeking peace could, in a storm of fear and fury, commit unforgivable acts.
Speaker A:The trail to California should have been a journey of hope.
Speaker A:At Mountain Meadows, it ended in tragedy.
Speaker A:And that tragedy, quietly buried in the soil of Utah, became a wound that would never fully close.
Speaker A:It would take generations for the stories to be told openly, for names to be spoken aloud without defensiveness or denial.
Speaker A:For a long time, those who knew the truth carried it like a stone in their pocket, never far from their thoughts, but rarely brought it into the light.
Speaker A:The children who survived grew up scattered, some with memories clouded by trauma, others piecing together fragments passed down in whispers.
Speaker A:Families of the victims mourned, with no graves to visit and no justice to lean on.
Speaker A:And for many inside the Mormon Church, the massacre became something unspeakable chapter too terrible to confront.
Speaker A:And so it was left unrelenting, read or put on the shelf, as they might say.
Speaker A:The government, for its part, used Mountain Meadows as a symbol, a cautionary tale.
Speaker A:What happens when religion wields unchecked power?
Speaker A:Lawmakers pointed to it when arguing against statehood for Utah.
Speaker A:Editorial writers used it to fan the flames of anti Mormon sentiment.
Speaker A:Polygamy had already made the church controversial.
Speaker A:The massacre made it frightening.
Speaker A:The reinforce, it reinforced the idea that Saints were not just separate from Americans life, that they were opposed to it.
Speaker A:And yet, paradoxically, the massacre also forced the church to reckon with that very image.
Speaker A:To move forward, the Saints had to begin the long process of transformation from a besieged religious enclave to an American institute.
Speaker A:The transformation wasn't clean.
Speaker A:It meant stepping away from some of the very things that had, you know, defined them, this isolationism, political independence, all these things.
Speaker A:But it also meant surviving.
Speaker A:It meant finding A way to hold on to faith without letting fear twist, twisted into violence.
Speaker A:And over time, the church slowly did just that.
Speaker A:It evolved slowly, painfully, publicly.
Speaker A:By the time Utah became a state, the LDS Church had begun to shed some of the characteristics that had made it a target.
Speaker A:But even as the public face softened, memory of Mountain Meadows never really faded.
Speaker A:And how could it?
Speaker A:The massacre was more than a crime.
Speaker A:It was a crossroads.
Speaker A:It was a moment where theology, politics, trauma, and fear collided with unimaginable consequences.
Speaker A:And it didn't happen in a vacuum.
Speaker A:It happened in a world where the Saints had beaten, had been beaten and driven from their homes time and time again.
Speaker A:Where they had learned that survival sometimes meant secrecy and solidarity above all else.
Speaker A:But in choosing to protect Zion at all costs, some among them crossed a moral line so profound that it shook the foundation of everything that they stood for.
Speaker A:It's easy from the safety of hindsight to paint the perpetrators as monsters, but the harder truth is, more haunt is.
Speaker A:The more haunting one is that, you know, they weren't.
Speaker A:They were.
Speaker A:They were fathers and farmers.
Speaker A:They believed that they were doing God's will.
Speaker A:They believe they were protecting their families.
Speaker A:And in that belief, they committed acts so brutal that people are still talking about it today.
Speaker A:Mountain Meadows is a place of silence.
Speaker A:There are monuments, plaques and things engraved with the names, but, you know, the silence still remains.
Speaker A:It's the.
Speaker A:It's the kind of silence that demands you listen, the kind that holds stories waiting to be heard, lessons.
Speaker A:Lessons waiting to be learned.
Speaker A:The massacre didn't just scar the land.
Speaker A:It scarred memory, scarred trust.
Speaker A:And maybe in some ways, that's what makes it such a critical part of American history, because it reminds us what fear can do, what certainty can do, what happens when a community closes its doors too tightly and sees every stranger as a threat.
Speaker A:It also reminds us what truth can do when it's finally spoken, when survivors acknowledge, when the descendants of victims and perpetrators stand together at the same hillside and say, this happened and we remember.
Speaker A:Mountain Meadows is not just a tragedy to mourn.
Speaker A:It's a warning to heed.
Speaker A:It's a legacy to understand, a story to keep telling no matter how long it takes.
Speaker A:And for some, you know, remembrance wasn't enough.
Speaker A:The shadow of this massacre and the increasing pressure from the federal government in decades that followed didn't just reshape the Mormon Church and how it operated.
Speaker A:It drove some of its members to make one final exit.
Speaker A:This while the main body of the church began moving forward.
Speaker A:You know, they assimilated, accommodated the government.
Speaker A:Others took a very different route.
Speaker A: By the: Speaker A:For those who continued to practice polygamy, it became increasingly difficult.
Speaker A:Difficult.
Speaker A:Some were arrested, others went underground.
Speaker A:But a significant number of Mormon families, still deeply devoted to the original teachings, which includes plural marriage polygamy, fled to Mexico, in particular states like Chihuahua and Sonora, to name a few.
Speaker A:These Mormons, they didn't just vanish, they, they founded entire colonies, which is pretty interesting, I guess.
Speaker A:They built farms, schools, churches, temples.
Speaker A:Life was tough, but for many, the freedom to live their FAI as they understood it was worth the hardship.
Speaker A:Mexico at the time had a government willing to allow them to settle as long as they, you know, obeyed local laws and didn't do anything crazy.
Speaker A:Exchange.
Speaker A:The Mormon colonies brought valuable agricultural skills, trade skills to the region.
Speaker A:This migration to Mexico wasn't directly caused by the massacre, but, you know, it was undeniably part of the same era of reckoning.
Speaker A:After the massacre and the Utah war, the government no longer saw the Mormon church as a sovereign entity.
Speaker A:It viewed it as a social and political threat that needed, needed to be, you know, cracked down on.
Speaker A:And as they did, the church was forced to adapt through compromise and then others through flight.
Speaker A:And what's fascinating is that these Mexican colonies still exist.
Speaker A:Some descendants of those original families remain in Mexico to this day, maintaining both their faith and cultural identity.
Speaker A:Others eventually returned to the United States where tensions cooled and their story remains an important chapter in Mormon history.
Speaker A:I believe.
Speaker A:I can't think of his name now.
Speaker A:Oh, Mitt Romney.
Speaker A:His family did go to Mexico and then came back.
Speaker A:So pretty interesting.
Speaker A:But, you know, anyway, that, that whole legacy is kind of just proof of how far some of them were willing to go to preserve what they believed.
Speaker A:Which, you know, in that way it mirrors early journeys to, you know, to Missouri, to Illinois, to Ohio, and then to Utah.
Speaker A:Always westward, always towards something, say, sacred and in each case shaped not just by faith, but, you know, friction between the outside world and their church.
Speaker A:So that's the story was started as a, you know, started with a farm boy, treasure hunter, limping Indiana Jones, you know, seeing visions in New York led to a movement that would face intense persecution, cross the plains in search of freedom, and build a kingdom in the desert.
Speaker A: But in: Speaker A:These 120 immigrants were murdered under a false flag of peace of truce and the blame was tried to put solely on native tribes, which was not true.
Speaker A:They may have helped, but they did not plan this.
Speaker A:And you know, one man, only one man ever held accountable.
Speaker A:John D.
Speaker A:Lee massacre shook public perception of Mormonism, fueled federal crackdowns, delayed Utah state.
Speaker A:Some members fled to Mexico, others assimilated, but Mountain Meadows never disappeared.
Speaker A:And it is definitely one that like brings hard questions about faith, fear, what people are capable of when they believe they're defending something sacred.
Speaker A: Like I said, wasn't until: Speaker A:Which is crazy.
Speaker A:Yeah, I want to thank all of you guys for listening to this story.
Speaker A:I know some of these especially depressing stories can be tough and I appreciate you and your support.
Speaker A:I also want to thank, thank Jordan once again for recommending this topic.
Speaker A:It allowed me to explore a subject that I know basically nothing about, lds.
Speaker A:And there's so many different things around that religion that are mysterious and the extremist side especially wild.
Speaker A:But you know, obviously that's a story for another day.
Speaker A:Also want to thank Dan McLellan.
Speaker A:He is an incredibly smart guy who does a lot of biblical translation stuff and you know, dissection of these old biblical text type content.
Speaker A:First found him on TikTok.
Speaker A:Very intelligent guy.
Speaker A:I emailed him because I was like I don't know where to start with this.
Speaker A:And he seemed very smart and he went to byu.
Speaker A:So I was like maybe he can give me, give me a good jumping off point.
Speaker A:And he pointed me towards the main source that I use today, which is Massacre at Mountain Meadows by Glenn M.
Speaker A:Leonard, Richard E.
Speaker A:Turley Jr.
Speaker A:Jr.
Speaker A:And Ronald W.
Speaker A:Walker.
Speaker A:Also, if you have a topic you want to hear, please let me know Wherever possible email me remedioscholargmail.com comment on any of the social media posts on YouTube.
Speaker A:Whatever.
Speaker A:If you're new and you enjoyed this episode, please share us, review us, do whatever you can.
Speaker A:You know the the word of mouth game is only as strong as the people playing it.
Speaker A:So please do that.
Speaker A:If you enjoy enjoyed it, check out the friends of the show in the description.
Speaker A:There's a link tree in the description takes you to the merch store.
Speaker A:Yeah and if you're on YouTube like subscribe do all those things.
Speaker A:And with that I will leave you with this.
Speaker A:Keep questioning the past.
Speaker A:The future will thank you.
Speaker A:See you next time.
